That is kinda my point. Nobody here defending the humble narrowband is trying to make that comparison. It's not as good as a wideband. But it's not useless. It's just not the same thing. If I was putting an expensive engine under a lot of nitrous or boost I'd run a wideband too, but there is no way you can tell me that $300 or more (lots more) for a wideband is worth it to tune a street carb when $25 will get you the desired results with just a little more work. And that's just uncalled for, don't you think? None of us really know who's on the other end of that computer screen, or what their level of experience is.
If normal O2 sensors are good enough to keep the A/F ratio straight in practically every factory EFI application, even performance cars, and they're installed by companies who have to honor warranties, why then are they useless for tuning a plain-old unsophistcated low-brow carburetor? Why is it always wideband or nothing?
Wide band is way more accurate. That's a fact. I wouldn't tune a car,Carb/efi/ flying toilet without it....... If you have ever had dyno tuning XP you would know the difference. Production cars are not seeing the level of performance that a High HP car does. To keep them together you want the tune as close to perfect as possible. IMO why spend mega bucks on the race parts and then skimp.... I do alot of work for the ricer crowd. Dodge Neon SRTs are becoming my specialty. I don't tune them as I do not have the equipment. They all run Wide bands. They are turbo,n20 and methanol cooled inter coolers. It takes two or three tunes for each setting. Other wise you would have engine parts all over the place. I have one now I did a mile port port clean up match, installed two hot turbo cams, hooked up methonal injection and intercooler cooler(it sprays the inter cooler to cool" it. There is a guy that tunes them in northern ohio. They get towed there. Run time is only long enough to check my work. 400 plus hp at the wheels is common place....... back to the point. If your car is very mild a narrow band is ok.....if it is modified go wide band....
"back to the point. If your car is very mild a narrow band is ok.....if it is modified go wide band...." ......
Okay, okay... I'm not trying to start an argument. I do know the difference. The car that I go to work in, romp on whenever I get the chance, burn tires with when I'm in a good mood and I don't see any cops, and occasionally might take to the track for fun... Just a nice clean old car with a relatively mild street performance engine and a carb on top, which has never seen a dyno and probably never will... Doesn't make sense to buy a wideband for that. For me that money would be better spent on something else. I tinker with the carb until I like the way it runs, then the seasons change and I'll do it again. Keeps me out of trouble and I like it that way. I have simple needs. I have a feeling this description represents more than just me, but it doesn't really matter. For me and others like me, a narrowband at best, or even just reading the plugs, the smell and the color of our exhaust is just fine. We're not gonna miss the relatively small gains we might get, and we're not all that likely to blow up our engines on 300 or fewer naturally aspirated horses. On the flip side... If I had a car like Blown 5.0's - which is an awesome car, BTW and I totally respect everything about it - I would want to squeeze every ounce of power I could get out of my investment, I would want to know absolutely everything about how it's running, and most importantly I would want to protect all the hours, sweat and huge amount of dollars I'd put into it from the very real danger that I could lose it all if it leans out at the wrong time. I would not dream of tuning that car with a standard O2 sensor. If I were to (and if I ever do) put my own car under any appreciable amount of nitrous, or under under boost, (or both??!!) I would not want to take it out of the driveway without a perfect tune and you can bet I'll be running a wideband. All I'm trying to say here is that there's a valid application for both tools. Draw the analogy of a narrowband to an idiot light if you want, and we'll call the wideband a proper temperature or oil pressure gauge. They are not the same thing at all but they both have their place.
Facelessnumber, Thanks for the complement. I think i have been misunderstood, What i have been trying to point out is Narrow band sensors are not accurate. While its true older computer cars used the narrow band sensors, They really only used a very narrow voltage window. (which equaled 14.7 -1) 1 millivolt below or above is really all the computer cared to see. What i tried to say is our cars can not be accurately tuned with a narrow band, Because the further away from 14.7 -1 you get the less accurate the sensor is. 14.7 -1 Really means nothing to us, Because max power is made at 11.5-12.5-1. Max fuel mileage is made at 16.5-19.0-1. Therefore the narrow band is of no use to our cars. Yes its true you can use the narrow band, But like i tried to explain before, When comparing the narrow and wide band there is none. Here's a example: I'm cruising down the road at 17-1 AFR my wide band is showing this, Guess what my narrow band sensors are saying? Nothing they are not capable of reading this AFR. Next case: At wide open throttle my wideband shows 11.5-1, Guess what my narrow band sensors are saying? Nothing they are not capable of reading this AFR. In my opinion, you are anyone else would be better off trying to read the plugs, than having the confusion of dealing with the narrow band sensors. Having the wide and narrow band sensors in my car has opened my eyes to the trouble someone could get into trying to tune with the narrow band. P.S. Most all Domestic cars now come with wide band sensors, (I'm not sure about the Jap, I only have to work on American) P.S.S. Here is a link i thought some might find of interest. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16236&cat=0&page=1
thanks :Handshake, that is something i can...read and understand. the gauge i bought is still in the box...going back tomorrow. ...Frank...
Yep. That makes sense. My understanding has always been that, electrically speaking, a narrowband registers 0-1 volts while a wideband is more like 0-5. Knew it was far less sensitive, but did not know that the range of actual A/F ratios were that far apart. Thank you for taking the time to explain it, rather than just being condescending about it as I've seen in other forums. Seriously, I've seen exactly this thread in other places, and I'm not convinced the guys wearing your hat at the time even had the understanding you've just shared. They just acted like douchebags until the thread got locked. This is by far the most civilized car forum I've had the privilege of joining.
Narrow band sensors are also referred to as switched O2, because they only switch from telling the computer lean or fat. On a fuel injected car, this is ok, because it happens about 1,000 times (or more) per second. You run the "fat" or "lean" signal through a PID loop, and the output is more or less open time for the fuel injectors. This is only at part throttle driving though where you want exactly 14.7 AFR. If you watch the voltage on a switched O2 on a fuel injected car while driving down the road it's jumping all over the place, until you go to WOT. Then it's pretty much dead nuts steady. During WOT driving, the engine either reads MAF or on a speed density system, vacuum and adjusts the AFR to a "fat" mix (whatever the factory guy tuned it to be). So, when using a narrow band as a tuning tool, you get either a rich signal or a lean signal. Once again, this is fine as long as you only use it for a reference point. I fire up my car and go to set the idle AFR screws. I have my narrow band tuner in hand. At first it's telling me I'm lean. So, I turn the screws out until it switches to rich. I should be just slightly to the rich side of 14.7. Now, I'm cruising down the road and my narrow band is telling me I'm lean. So, I adjust either my air bleeds or my jets (or rods or whatever!) until my narrow band says FAT, then I go back one step. Now, I should be just on the lean side of 14.7. Now I'm flogging the car at the track to get my secondaries set up. When I first stab the throttle, it says FAT (awesome!) as I continue at WOT it stays FAT, but at the end of the track all of a sudden I get LEAN on my switched O2. Uh oh, I'm running out of fuel at the top end. Need to do something about that. Or say I have a stumble when I stab the throttle. I see that it goes FAT-lean-FAT real quick. Probably a squirter issue or a power valve issue. If it stumbles and just stays FAT, then it's probably an ignition advance issue. If you use the switched O2 sensor like that, to know if you're lean or fat, then it's just fine. Essentially the same thing as reading plugs without all the busted nuckles and swearing. If you want to know if you're running 10:1 or 17:1 then yes, like posted above you need a wide band.
today is...yesterdays...tomorrow...took it back...yesterday...saturdays...tomorrow... :Handshake to all that helped me make up my mind ......
Thanks for the info and comments on this guys . Although I have never actually owned either type ,I thought I had a fair understanding of how both worked ,but now I really the see the difference and understand things better.
Again I have used narrowband. They're OK for 2 things. First, a replacement for closed loop factory-replacement EFI and feedback carb cars. Second, a means to fill up your favorite trash can. I just picked up a LM-1. I don't have it in my hands, but I will soon....and I'll post back the results of logging A/F on a couple cars. I plan to use it on the Maverick and on the Merkur. I just saw on Innovate's website that the LM-2 will be out soon. I wish I'd have waited. That thing looks like it will be a wonderful tuning aid and it comes equipped with everything I need without having to buy the auxbox and/or LMA-2 rpm converter.
